privately, it is quite open to any single member to order that strangers withdraw.
Two
Hon. P. Ryrie-That has never been done. The CHIEF JUSTICE-It may never have been done, but the necessity might arise, and I must say with these votes on the Loan and the Fortifications the probability is that if they had had to be discussed in Council it would have been necessary to do that, for there were a great many matters introduced of a confidential nature. Colonel Walker insisted he would not give any evidence that could be used unless it was treated as confidential. With regard to the Loan, hon. members who were present must know there were certain matters referred to by Mr. Jackson which he never would have mentioned in public. Therefore it seems to me the best course is to continue the practice that has been adopted. With regard to the estimates, in no part of the world are they considered more in detail than they are in this Council-hear, hear, from Mr. Ryrie)-and hon. members will remember that on frequent occasions we have had the heads of departments up, and have examined them as to the cause of the increase in their departments, and even on the efficiency of their staff. That could not be done in public. If such questions as we are in the habit of asking in Committee were put in Council the person would either refuse to answer them, or, if he did answer them, would not give such full and complete answers. It seems to me, therefore, the better plan is to let things remain as they are, except this: I have always felt there was something due to the public, and not only the official, but the unofficial members have been somewhat to blame for not taking the public more into their confidence. What I would suggest is that when the report of the Committee is brought up the hon. member moving its adoption should explain the reasons on which the Committee has arrived at its decision, and then, if any other member wishes to explain his views, it is quite open to him to get up and do so. If any hon. member thinks on any matter suggestions from the public would be useful, it is quite open to him to ask that its consideration be adjourned for one or two meetings, until the public shall have spoken; and I do not think the majority of the members of Council would ever refuse to entertain his request. It seems to me in that way the public can be taken into our confidence much better than if we say that in all these delicate inquiries that take place in the Finance Committee we should have reporters present. I would suggest to hon. members, official and unofficial, whatever opinions they have come with, they should consider the matters I have now laid before them, and if they think, under all the circumstances, that things would not go on as well under the proposed change as they have hitherto gone on, with the exception I have suggested, they should give their votes in favour of the old practice being continued.
2
His EXCELLENCY-Hon. members of Council,-The debate which has just taken place is a very important one, and I shall make it my duty to forward a report of it to the Secretary of State, giving him the opportunity of giving such directions in respect to the suggestions that have been made as he may think fit. But I regret I cannot support any recommendation for the admission of the public to the meetings of the Finance Committee, or for the abolition of that Committee. I have had very long experience in other colonies, especially in Mauritius, where the same system prevails which was adopted here in 1872. To my knowledge it has been going on in Mauritius for 30 years. Mauritius is a much larger island than Hongkong, and its expenditure, I think, is £750,000 a year. The very keenest interest was taken there in all votes of money, and they were very fully discussed: but they were discussed in Finance Committee first, and then when the vote was moved for the adoption of the report, it could be discussed again; and in any matters of importance this was always done. Now, since I have left Mauritius, they have got a very large representative element in the Council, twelve elected, besides other unofficial members appointed by the Governor, and they are perfectly satisfied with the working of the Finance Committee. It is a great convenience. It enables the Government to give to members of Council confidential information which it would not be able to do otherwise, and the fullest publicity may be given afterwards to the reasons which have influenced the Committee if any honourable member wishes it. I propose, when the Estimates of next year are laid before the Council, to adopt a different course from that which has hitherto been followed. The practice has been to lay the estimates before the Council, refer them to the Finance Committee, and then ask the Council to vote en bloc, but I propose to move that the Council should go into Committee on them as it does on bills, and you will then be asked to vote separately the sums required for the different departments, the same as is done in the House of Commons. You will be asked for so much for the Governor's establishment, for instance, and any hon. member can ask questions upon it; but I think it would be very difficult for hon. members to put these questions unless they had previously considered the matter in Finance Committee.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-But you see they have got their answers already in Finance Committee. Hon. A. P. MacEwen-May I ask whether his Honour the Chief Justice proposes to move an amendment embodying his suggestion?
The CHIEF JUSTICE said there might be other reasons for continuing the present system than that stated in the amendment of the Attorney-General, and suggested that the first portion of the amendment be omitted.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he would accept the suggestion of the Chief Justice, and in reply to a question as to what the vote was by which the Council unanimously approved of the present practice in 1884 said he referred to the Standing Orders which were adopted on the 10th April, 1884.
The COLONIAL TREASURER-Sir, I am requested to ask if his Honour the Chief Justice would embody, either in that amendment or in one of his own, the very important suggestion that when a report of the Finance Committee is brought up the officer who brings it up should state the reasons which have influenced the Finance Committee in the recommendations which they have made.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-It is hardly necessary to do that if the feeling of the Council is in favour of it.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-Some addition might, perhaps, be made to Rule 26, to the effect that the Chairman of the Committee, in moving the adoption of the report in Council should state the reasons which have influenced the Finance Committee.
The ACTING COLONIAL SECRETARY-Generally the Finance Committee give their reasons in their report.
His EXCELLENCY-It is an opinion expressed in the Council of which due notice will be taken. The amendment was then put in the following form: It is not necessary to interfere with the present practice of Council which has been in existence for many years and which was unanimously adopted by the Standing Rules and Orders of the Council dated 10th April, 1884.** The voting was as follows:-
FOR.
Hon. Wong Shing
The Harbour Master
The Surveyor-General
The Colonial Treasurer
The Acting Attorney-General
AGAINST.
Hon. J. Bell-Irving
Hon. A. P. MacEwen
Hon. F. D. Sassoon
Hon. P. Ryrie
The Acting Colonial Secretary
The Chief Justice
The amendment was declared carried by a majority of three.
214
privately, it is quito open to any single member to order that strangers withdraw.
two
Hon. P. RYRIR-That has never been done. The CHIEF JUSTICE-It may never have been done, but the necessity might arise, and I must aay with these
votes on the Loan and the Fortifications the probability is that if they had had to be discussed in Council itwould have been úscessary to do that, for there were a great many matters introduced of a confidential nature. Colonel Walker insisted he would not give any evidence that could be used unless it was treated as confidential. With regard to the Loan, hou. members who were present must know there were certain matters referred to by Mr. Jackson which he never would have men. tioned in public. Therefore it seems to me the best course is to continue the practice that has been adopted. With regard to the estimates, in no part of the world are they considered more in detail than they are in this Council-hear, bear, from Mr. Ryrie)-and hon. members will remember that on frequent occasions we have had tho beads of departments up, and have examined them as to the cause of the increase in their departments, and even on the efficiency of their staff. That could not be done in public. If such questions as we are in the habit of asking in Committee were put in Council the person would either refuse to answer them, or, if he did answer them, would not give such full and complete answers. It seems to me, therefore, the better plan is to let things remain as they are, except this: I have always felt there was something due to the public, and not only the official, but the unofficial members hava been somewhat to blame for not taking the public more into their confidence, What I would suggest is that when the report of the Committee is brought the hon. metaber moving its adoption should explain the reasons on which the Committee has arrived at its de- cision, and then, if any other member wishes to explain his views, it is quite open to him to get ap and do so. If any hon. member thinks on any matter suggestions from the public world bo useful, it is quite open to him to ask that its consideration be adjourned for one or two meetings, until the public shall have spoken; and I do not think the majority of the members of Council would ever refuse to entertain his request. It seems to me in that way the public can be taken into our confidence much better than if we say that in all these delicate inquiries that take place in the Finance Committee we should have reporters pre- sent. I would suggest to hon, members, official and unofficial, whatever opinions they have come with, they should consider the matters I have now laid before them, and if they think, under all the circumstances, that things would not go on as well under the proposed change as they have hitherto gone on, with the exception I have 1 suggested, they should give their votes in favour of the old practice being continued.
2
His EXCELLENCY-Hon. members of Council, -The debate which has just taken place is a very importaut one, and I shall make it my duty to forward a report of it to the Secretary of State, giving him the opportunity of giving such directions in respect to the suggestions that have been made as he may think it. But I regret I cannot support any recommendation for the admission of the public to the meetings of the Finance Committee, or for the abolition of that Committee. I have had
very long experience in other colonies, especially in Mauritius, where the same system prevails which was adopted here in 1872. To my knowledge it has been going on in Mau- ritius for 30 years. Mauritins is a much larger island than Hongkong, and ita expenditure, I think, is £750,000 a year. The very keenest inte- rest was taken there in all votes of money, and they were very fully discussed: but they were discussed in Finance Committee first, and then when the vote was moved for the] adoption of the report, it could be discussed again; and in any matters of importauce this was al ways done. Now, since I have left Mauritius, they have got a very large representative element in the Council, twelve elected, besides other un- official members appointed by the Governor, and they are perfectly satisfied with the working of the Finance Committee. It is a great convenience. It enables the Government to give to members of Council confidential in- formation which it would not be able to do other wish, and the fullest publicity may be given after-
wärde
wards to the reasons which have influenced the Commitles if any honourable member wishes it. I propose, when the Estimates of next year are laid before the Council, to adopt a different course from that which has hitherto been followed. The practice has been to lay the estimates before the Council, refer them to the Finance Committee, and then ask the Conncil to vote en bloc, but I į propose to move that the Council should go into Committee on them as it doeson bills, and you will then be asked to vote separately the sums re- quired for the different departments, the same! ias is done in the House of Commons. You will be asked for so much for the Governor's establish. ment, for instance, and any hon. member can ask questions upon it; but I think it would be very difficult for hon. members to put these questions unless they had previously considered the matter in Finance Committee.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-But you see they have got their answers already in Finance Committee, Hon. A. P. MACEWEN-May I ask whether his Honour the Chief Justice proposes to move au amendment embodying his suggestion
The CHIEF JUSTICE said there might be other reasons for continuing the present system than that stated in the amendment of the Attorney- General, and suggested that the first portion of the amendinent be omitted.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he would accept the suggestion of the Chief Justice, and in reply to a question as to what the vote was by which the Council unanimously approved of the present practice in 1884 said he referred to the Standing Orders which were adopted on the 10th April, 1884.
The COLONIAL TREASURER-Sir, I am re quested to ask if his Honour the Chief Justice would embody, either in that amendment or in one of his own, the very important suggestion that when a report of the Finance Committee is brought up the officer who brings it up should state the reasons which have influenced the Finance Committee in the recommendations which they have made.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-It is hardly necessary to do that if the feeling of the Council is in favour of it.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-Some ad- dition might, perhaps, he made to Rule 26, to the effect that the Chairman of the Committee, in moving the adoption of the report in Council should state the reasons which have influenced the Finance Committee.
The ACTING COLONIAL SECRETARY-Gener- ally the Finance Committee give their reasons in their report.
His EXCELLENCy-It is an opinion expressed in the Council of which due notice will be taken. The amendment was then put in the follow- ing formIt is not necessary to interfere with the present practice of Council which has been in existence for many years and which was unanimously adopted by the Standing Rules and. Orders of the Council dated 10th April, 1884.** The voting was as follows:-
FOR.
Hon. Wong Shing
The Harbour Master
The Survavor.Goneral
The Colonial Treasurer
The Acting Attorney-General
AGAINST.
Hon. J. Bell-Irving Hon. A. P. MacEwen Hon. F. D. Sassoon Hon. P. Byrie
The Acting Colonial Secretary The Chief Justice
The amendment was declared carried by an majority of three.
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